CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday, the Biden agenda at risk.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
We've got 50 people. We can't lose one.
CHUCK TODD:
Progressive Democrats holding firm on spending bills:
REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL:
We're not leaving one part of the agenda behind and giving up on the idea of child care, paid leave, community college, health care.
CHUCK TODD:
Moderate Democrats hoping to trim the cost:
SEN. TIM KAINE:
I understand people are concerned about the topline dollar amount.
CHUCK TODD:
And Republicans vowing to stand in the way:
SEN. JOHN BARRASSO:
This is government-run socialism. Every one of us is opposed to it.
CHUCK TODD:
Will Democrats reach agreement or fail and risk sinking the president's agenda? My guest: Democratic Senator Cory Booker of New Jersey. Plus, the border crisis.
MAYOR BRUNO LOZANO:
I’ve seen just the desperate looks of the people just trying to get processed. I mean, it's a completely dire situation.
CHUCK TODD:
That encampment of migrant Haitians finally cleared.
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
There are no longer any migrants in the camp underneath the Del Rio International Bridge.
CHUCK TODD:
But questions remain about where the migrants were sent, their treatment and how to secure the border. I'll talk to Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas. Plus, the booster rollout.
DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY:
I must do what I can to preserve the health across our nation.
CHUCK TODD:
Rochelle Walensky overrules her own CDC advisory panel and recommends Pfizer boosters for workers at risk. And new revelations about what President Trump was doing on January 6th and the efforts being made at the Trump White House at the time to overturn the results of the election. I'll talk to the authors of the new book "Peril" -- Bob Woodward and Robert Costa. Joining me for insight and analysis are Amy Walter, editor-in-chief and publisher of the Cook Political Report, Eddie Glaude, Jr. of Princeton University, NBC News Capitol Hill correspondent Leigh Ann Caldwell and Meghan McCain, columnist for TheDailyMail.com. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. When Democrats won control of the White House, held the House and narrowly grabbed the Senate in that Georgia upset, they embraced some very large goals that carried some very large risks. President Biden proposed a vast and ambitious progressive agenda, despite his narrow majorities in Congress, much of it packed into two bills: an infrastructure bill and a $3.5 trillion dollar domestic spending bill. But even as the president faces a series of challenges that have hurt his own poll numbers, Democrats are fighting among themselves. Progressives and moderates are arguing over the size and scope of the $3.5 trillion spending bill, with each side threatening to sink it without compromises from the other. John Podesta, who worked for Presidents Clinton and Obama, warned Democrats if they failed to reach agreement, "It would signal a complete and utter failure of our democratic duty, and a reckless abdication of our responsibility." In other words for Democrats, on this one, failure is not an option. At stake simply, the agenda of the president of their party who desperately needs a win. But Democrats have little margin for error in the House, and no margin for error in the Senate and no clear path yet for making good on the president’s promises.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
This is a process and it's going to be up and down. That's why I don't look at the polls.
CHUCK TODD:
President Biden -- who ran on bringing competency back to Washington -- is facing a string of setbacks: a chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan, a migrant crisis at the border, the ongoing Covid pandemic - and now a brewing fight on Capitol Hill between progressive and moderate Democrats over his domestic agenda. The president's job approval rating is nowunderwater in most polls.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Remember, I said it's going to take me a year to deliver everything I'm looking at here.
CHUCK TODD:
On the border, the camp in Del Rio, Texas that was once packed with 15,000 migrants, mostly Haitians, is now gone.
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
There are no longer any migrants in the camp.
CHUCK TODD:
On Thursday, the U.S. Special Envoy to Haiti resigned in protest of the administration's "inhumane, counterproductive decision to deport thousands" of Haitian migrants back to Haiti. And Democrats expressed horror over the images of agents on horseback chasing migrants and swinging leather reins.
REP. JOYCE BEATTY:
The nation has witnessed, over the last 48 hours, some of the most horrific things that we’ve seen.
REP. AYANNA PRESSLEY:
This is abhorrent.
REP. ANDY LEVIN:
It is outrageous.
REP. MAXINE WATERS:
I’m pissed.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Of course I take responsibility, I’m president. To see people treated like they did, horses nearly running over people being strapped -- it’s outrageous. I promise you, those people will pay.
CHUCK TODD:
The president also faces the threat of a shutdown. Republicans are refusing to help keep the government open and solvent - threatening legislative sabotage as a political tactic.
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
The debt ceiling will be raised as it always should be, but it will be raised by the Democrats.
CHUCK TODD:
And Mr. Biden is attempting to negotiate a political truce between progressive and centrist Democrats -- at odds over the size of his domestic spending package and the timing of a vote on a bipartisan infrastructure bill. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is promising a vote this week:
REP. NANCY PELOSI:
Have a little patience. Follow it. See it unfold. It’s very interesting. We're very encouraged.
CHUCK TODD:
But progressives are threatening to withhold their support until they have reassurances on the size of the proposed $3.5 trillion dollar domestic spending package.
REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL:
The reality is the bill coming up and not having the votes is not something that the Speaker will be willing to do. And we don't have the votes for it.
SEN. JOE MANCHIN:
It’s still a shame, truly is a shame that they’re using that as a hostage towards this.
CHUCK TODD:
Former Obama White House chief of staff John Podesta is calling on progressives to pare back their ambitions, writing "The political reality is clear ... We will not secure the full $3.5 trillion investment." And Podesta is warning centrists, "You are either getting both bills or neither -- and the prospect of neither is unconscionable."
JOHN PODESTA:
It's politically catastrophic if we don't move forward with, with these bills at this time.
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is the Democratic senator from New Jersey, Cory Booker. Senator Booker, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
It's really great to be back on.
CHUCK TODD:
It’s good to have you in person. We don’t --
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Yes.
CHUCK TODD:
We're getting there. John Podesta earlier this week wrote a memo that said, you know, was basically sending a memo to both sides of this argument, moderates and progressives, like, "Look, you're going to have to come together." And to progressives, he said, "You're going to have to accept the reality that $3.5 trillion is going to get pared back." Do you concur?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Well, first of all, I don't like how this has been characterized as progressives versus moderates. This is Joe Biden's bill. And as he said to me in the Oval Office and a handful of others, he goes, "I've never really been a progressive. This is about seizing what is a once in a generation opportunity, like those who built the canals and the railroads, like those who built the incredible Eisenhower Highway Act. If we miss this opportunity, every dollar that we shrink it is a dollar that we're not investing in our future, and it's unfortunate. So how this plays out -- yeah, this is Washington. I'm sure there's going to be some kind of compromise. But to me, to compromise repairing our electrical grid or to compromise ending being the only nation on the planet earth, of industrial nations, that doesn't have paid family leave, that has its costs. And it's going to make America lose the boldness of the possibility of jumping forward as a nation.
CHUCK TODD:
Is there a sense here though that maybe, you know, there's an old saying that all of our parents used to say, "Your eyes are bigger than your stomach." Were the political eyes bigger than the political reality? Meaning, like, look, you’re only -- you can only do as much as the fiftieth senator?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
That is 100% true. And I think a lot of times, we're losing sight of what we've already accomplished under this president. I was with a person from the Black media who just said to me, "Oh, well, voting rights and police reform. What's he done for the Black community?" I go, "What are you talking about?" I said, "We've cut Black poverty, child poverty 50%. We are the first president stepping up on Black farmers, maternal mortality, getting lead pipes out of the ground." Biden has wracked up one of the greatest agendas of accomplishments. It's unfortunate people don't see that. And if we do a $3 trillion bill, a $2.5 trillion bill, I'm going to push for as big and bold as we can. But it will be a historic investment in America. And unlike President Trump, who racked up $8 trillion worth of debt, and where did it go? Mostly to the wealthiest in our nation. This president, with the child tax credit, has given the biggest middle class tax cut in our country in generations. So I'm proud of what Biden's doing. And as we sat in the Oval Office, we passed -- moderates were coming out, progressives were going in. And he is really doing shuttle diplomacy trying to land this.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, and I guess I get, the question is what's with the, it looks like distrust from my perspective, in that you wrote this letter along with ten other senators that reinforced this idea, "Hey, don't bring up the bipartisan infrastructure bill in the House until the larger reconciliation bill is done." Why can't you trust centrists or moderates, however we want to classify the folks, that they'll be there? Why not pass this on Monday, put some points on the scoreboard for President Biden, which right now helps the whole party, and trust that the moderates will be there for this?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
I don't think it's a matter of trust. I think it's a matter of I've been around here, this town, now for eight years, watching the best of intentions not manifest into something real. We were told that this was -- we'd see this as one package. The president as recent as last week has said, "Don't separate this. This is one package that we're looking at." And so I just want to make sure this is not about a bunch of people who are battling it out in Congress. This is about the American people. And to get half of this done and leave mothers who are looking for affordable childcare, Americans who are looking for lower cost prescription drugs, to leave people like that on the wayside, families that need that child tax credit, to leave those folks on the wayside is unacceptable to me. So I've seen the best of intentions. I want a more real guarantee.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, you just don’t believe -- words not enough?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
No. Again --
CHUCK TODD:
I mean, that's what it comes down to.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
No --
CHUCK TODD:
Basically, saying that Joe Manchin's word's not enough here?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Look, I have been looked in the eye by people in this town and they've meant it sincerely. There's honor in them saying it. "Hey, Cory, we're not going to get this in such-and-such a bill, but we'll get to it." Well, sometimes that "get to it" turns out to be a year, the next Congress, or what have you. I'm sorry, when you have the leverage, you use the leverage, as long as it's not about ego or partisanship. For me, it's about the communities in this country. And by the way, Independents, 60%, 70% support what we're trying to do. Republicans, if you break out the policies that are in these bills --
CHUCK TODD:
Well, I want to get to that --
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
-- support it.
CHUCK TODD:
-- breaking out the policies. I'm having flashbacks to health care. I heard the same thing. "Hey, the individual parts are really popular."
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Yes. Yes.
CHUCK TODD:
Okay. Yes, they are. Should you be dealing with them in an individual piece here? I understand the situation of reconciliation, but you could be debating each part of this bill one at a time here, and you might actually get your message to the people that this isn't just a money grab.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Yes. I tell you, I was a mayor during the health care debates. And it took, you know, years before suddenly the Affordable Care Act, call it Obamacare, I know a lot people on the right don't like it, but now the Affordable Care Act polls above water for every group, Republicans, Independents and Democrats. So again, there is movements and moments. This is a moment for America to go big. We didn't tell FDR, "Hey, break it into constituent parts." We didn't tell Eisenhower --
CHUCK TODD:
But he did do it in different parts though, that's the difference, is that both LBJ and FDR did this in pieces.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
And they also --
CHUCK TODD:
Now, they had bigger majorities.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
I was about to say --
CHUCK TODD:
I know.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
-- they had much bigger majorities.
CHUCK TODD:
Yes. But they did it in pieces.
SEN.CORY BOOKER:
Yes. This is realpolitik. And the reality is right now, we will have very small opportunities. You know what it looks like for the next Congress to move this big. People elected the president of the United States to do bold, big things that will change America. This is our moment. We should seize it.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. But during the presidential primaries, which you were a part of --
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Yes.
CHUCK TODD:
-- didn't the Democratic voters essentially send the message, "Do what's possible"? They didn't pick the progressive candidate.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Yes. They picked a moderate guy who has a great track record for getting big things done in the Senate. And that's why Joe Biden was joking with us in the White House. He's like, "This bill is not a progressive wish list. This is an American wish list." I said bipartisanship, when you poll the parts with Republicans, what he is doing is wildly popular with the Republican Americans who want child care and affordable college and affordable daycare. They want to make sure that we're meeting the challenge of climate change. So again, to characterize this as some -- remember, Bernie Sanders' first wish list was a $6 trillion package. This is significantly less than that. And the other thing is in Washington math, you've got to get upset about this. Donald Trump's tax cut was a $5 trillion bill. People called it a $2 trillion bill because $3 trillion of it was paid for. Paid for in the wrong way --
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
-- getting rid of our state and local tax deduction. This one is a zero bill. We're paying for the whole thing. But yet, we're -- we're using different math to make it sound bigger and more ornery.
CHUCK TODD:
I don't want to let you go without asking about your take on why police reform didn't come to fruition. Here's what Tim Scott said. He said, "Democrats said no because they could not let go of their push to defund our law enforcement." Is that correct?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
No. Again, why are we descending into partisan name calling or partisan corners? These are two guys that sat down, that worked very hard over nine months, got the FOP to endorse a compromise bill. And I never imagined we would get FOP leadership to come onboard. The International Association of Chiefs of Police who said, "Yes, our profession's in trouble." The families were with what we were proposing. It didn't work. We didn't --
CHUCK TODD:
Why do you think Senator Scott's using this language though? Because you've been very diplomatic, he's not being as diplomatic. Why?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
You know, I love him. I send him grace all the time. He is a friend of mine. The reality is I've gotten big things done in this town in this space with Lindsey Graham, Chuck Grassley and Donald Trump. We got big things done to cut --
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think McConnell didn't want him to cut this deal? Do you think there were others above him that were basically, like, "Do the best you can, but"?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
I promised the families we were going to get something done. I'm still at work. I'm not throwing, I’m not throwing accusations at either side. I do think this town has got to learn, all of us, that to try to play the singular blame game, I accept responsibility. We didn't get it done. I haven't stopped working. We need to lift the frequency of this town, especially on issues like this, that all of America knows -- biggest demonstrations in this country's history for change. They want change from the federal. We didn't do it.
CHUCK TODD:
It's quite notable though that you're not taking, going politics here. Senator Scott is. Just saying.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Again, I've learned a lot over the last eight years, and that's not the way to get things done in the long run. And the families deserve -- we're going to still see videotapes of unarmed African Americans being killed. We've had tragedies in this country we've all witnessed. We've got to start getting things done. And the wonderful thing about it is police leaders understand it as well. We've got to get back to the table eventually and get big things done.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator Cory Booker, it's good to see you. Thanks for coming in.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
Appreciate it.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Thank you very much.
CHUCK TODD:
On Friday, Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas announced that all the Haitian migrants who had gathered under a bridge in Del Rio, Texas had been cleared from the area. More than 12,000 were released into the United States and allowed to request asylum. Mayorkas says 8,000 returned to Mexico voluntarily and, as of Friday, 2,000 were expelled to Haiti. Still, the images of white Border Patrol agents appearing to manhandle Haitian migrants drew sharp criticism from Democrats and from President Biden. And Secretary Mayorkas joins me now. Mr. Secretary, welcome back to Meet The Press.
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
Thanks for having me, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me start with the decision to send 2,000 Haitian migrants back to Haiti in these current circumstances. In hindsight, was that a mistake?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
No, it wasn't, Chuck. That is the exercise of a public health imperative. We're in the midst of a pandemic and the Centers for Disease Control has a Title 42 authority that we exercise to protect the migrants themselves, to protect the local communities, our personnel and the American public. The pandemic is not behind us. Title 42 is a public health policy, not an immigration policy.
CHUCK TODD:
But these folks didn't come from Haiti. They came from some other places in South America. Should they have been sent somewhere else?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
So, we are working with other countries. Chile, Brazil, other countries in South America and the region. These are Haitian nationals. Some of them don't have documents from the countries from which they just left. So, they are subject to removal. They are subject to Title 42 expulsion and we work with the countries that receive them. In fact, in Haiti specifically, we've contributed about $5.5 million to ensure their safe and humane resettlement there.
CHUCK TODD:
Right, but they haven’t -- some of these folks haven't been there in over five years.
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
That is indeed the case. And they're Haitian nationals, and they're subject to removal to a country that is able to receive them.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you about Title 42. Is that an authority you still want to have?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
That is an authority that the Centers for Disease Control has determined to still be necessary given where we are in the arc of the pandemic.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to ask you about the behavior of the CBP and Border Patrol. Clearly, a lot of Democrats were upset. The vice president did something that I had never seen before with a Cabinet member. They put out -- they put out a, essentially, a readout of a call that she had with you. And it seemed to say that -- the implication was that it was a dressing down of sorts. How did you respond to her about the performance of Border Patrol?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
So, the performance of Border Patrol is the subject of an investigation and the facts that are adduced in that investigation are going to be determinative. But I think the entire American public correctly and necessarily were horrified by what the images suggested. They conjured up such a dark past that we have not entirely put behind us.
CHUCK TODD:
Did President Biden go too far when he said, "Those folks are gonna pay"? Are they guilty before there's an investigation?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
Oh, absolutely not. The investigation is independent. We know how to conduct an independent investigation. I think the president echoed the sentiments of the public in terms of what those images suggest.
CHUCK TODD:
There is some Democrats in this town that think CBP is a rogue agency. What would you say to that? I'm sure you've heard that privately.
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
Oh, I dont -- I couldn't disagree more vehemently. I'm intensely and immensely proud of the men and women of the U.S. Customs and Border Protection. In fact, in Del Rio, Texas, I saw them act heroically. You know, what those images suggest does not reflect who CBP is, who we are as a department, nor who we are as a country.
CHUCK TODD:
Now, the Border Patrol union said that, you know, using horseback, that that is a training that they get. Are they right?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
Oh, the horse patrol serves an incredibly important function. Horses can traverse terrain that might not otherwise be covered. In fact, horses are often used to not only assess a situation, but to actually help people in distress. CBP personnel have saved many lives on horseback.
CHUCK TODD:
So, those images you think are something that -- do you think those images misconstrued their actions? Do you think that it's going to turn out their actions were actually on the up and up?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
The facts are going to be adduced in the investigation. The investigation will determine the facts. It's an independent one run by the Office for Professional Responsibility. In fact, I directed that the leadership of that office direct the investigation to ensure its both integrity and quality.
CHUCK TODD:
You, I know, are getting a lot of heat from members of Congress on both sides of the aisle. I want to play for you a clip from Congressman Henry Cuellar, who's a Democrat representing the border down there. Here's what he said about the current situation.
[START TAPE]
REP. HENRY CUELLAR:
President Obama and Secretary Jeh Johnson, they treated the immigrants, the migrants with respect and dignity, but at the same time they followed the law. If they're not supposed to be here, then, with all due respect, you've got to send them back.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Look, you were a deputy in that administration, too, so you've been at this. What is the -- what is the same and what is different compared to the surges you dealt with at DHS in '14 and '15 versus what we're seeing today?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
So, this is not new. Remember, in the summer of 2014, we had a great number of unaccompanied children arrive here. And there were people who called for us to do more than we did. And there were people who called for us to do things differently than we did. Getting hit from both sides in the matter of immigration is no surprise. We are in the epicenter of the country's divide, regrettably. And we do what the law requires, what our humanitarian mission requires.
CHUCK TODD:
But do we have enough resources down there to deal with the surge that's currently happening? Because we thought this was seasonal. It turned out it's not seasonal this year.
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
So, we have an incredible ability to deploy resources to meet the challenges that we face. And we actually have evidence that, quite powerfully, in Del Rio, Texas, in less than a week we addressed a population of 15,000 there and now there are none.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you accept the idea that we have a crisis at the border?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
I am focused on mission, Chuck, and the challenges that we face and our ability to meet those challenges. And I am incredibly impressed with the men and women who do so.
CHUCK TODD:
And do you think we have the ability to meet these challenges right now or does the law have to be changed?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
Oh, I think --well, I think we meet the challenges, but we are working in a completely broken system. And as to that, there is unanimity in Washington and in the country. I've never heard anyone say that the laws in immigration are well-structured.
CHUCK TODD:
If we get more Haitian migrants, is the only solution going to be that they're likely to be deported back to Haiti?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
No, as you mentioned at the very outset, Chuck, there are a number of them that are expelled under the Title 42 authority, the public health authority, and then there are others that are placed in immigration court proceedings and have the ability to make their claims to an immigration judge.
CHUCK TODD:
Are you at all concerned this will serve as a magnet for more migrants to come?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
Oh, I don't think that is the case at all. In fact, 8,000 Haitians returned to Mexico over the past week.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think that's because we're sending people back to Haiti?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
I can't speak for them, but I do think they made that journey, which we admonished them not to make, to not put their lives and their funds in the hands of smugglers who exploit them.
CHUCK TODD:
Secretary Mayorkas, I appreciate you coming on and sharing the administration's perspective.
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
Thank you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
You got it. When we come back, we're learning more about what all the president's men were doing to help Donald Trump during his final days in office to overturn the election and to stay in power. Bob Woodward and Robert Costa of the Washington Post join me next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. We've been learning more about the backstory to the January 6th insurrection and all the events around it post-election. The Biden White House, by the way, is now considering handing over information about what President Trump was doing while the Capitol was being ransacked that day. The House committee investigating January 6th issued subpoenas to four Trump allies, including his last chief of staff, Mark Meadows, and his on-again, off-again political advisor Steve Bannon, asking them to hand over their records and appear for depositions. And in Bob Woodward and Robert Costa's new book, Peril, we learn that a lawyer working for President Trump wrote a memo outlining a way for Vice President Pence to invalidate the results of the election, essentially sending it to the House and hand the presidency back to Mr. Trump. That revelation is one of many in the book, Peril. Bob Woodward and Robert Costa join me now. Gentlemen, --
BOB WOODWARD:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
-- welcome back to Meet The Press. Bob, I want to start here with sort of a big picture question, which is --
BOB WOODWARD:
Sure.
CHUCK TODD:
-- did you guys chronicle an aborted coup?
BOB WOODWARD:
Well, I mean, there were attempts. And, of course, the core of Trump's argument is the election was stolen. And what we found in our work is two of the biggest Trump allies, Lindsey Graham and Senator Lee from Utah -- I mean this is the core of Trump's support in the Senate investigated these claims and discovered that there was absolutely nothing there. And what you see Trump and his lawyers doing these kind of legal somersaults that just hold no water with Trump's allies. And, you know, that you can't convince Lindsey Graham and Mike Lee that the election was stolen or that there was some fraud means what we found, a weakness in the case. Not just a weakness, but zero evidence.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Robert, there were so many near misses here. I want to look at this excerpt that you guys have, a conversation between President Trump and Vice President Pence at the time. He's trying to get him to work and he says, "If these people say you had the power, wouldn't you want to do it?" Trump asks of Pence. "I wouldn't want any one person to have that authority," Pence said. "But wouldn't it almost be cool to have that power?" Trump asked. "No," Pence said. "Look, I've read this and I don't see a way to do it." And we weren't sure of the role Mike Pence played, but was he the lone bulwark here?
ROBERT COSTA:
The story of January 6th is not just that day. It's the days before, all of the movement afoot inside of the Oval Office. On January 4th, John Eastman, the author of the memo you cited here, he was in the Oval with the president, pressuring Vice President Pence. Look at this memo. "Try to throw out alternate electors on January 6th." And that meeting, which was the ultimate temptation of power, a president to a vice president. The next day, January 5th, Vice President Pence, who spent four years trying to do the bidding politically for President Trump, he said he didn't have the constitutional ability to act. This was the brink of a constitutional crisis on the eve of an insurrection.
CHUCK TODD:
Had Mike Lee indicated support for this pathway, do you think the vice president would have changed his mind? How important is that?
ROBERT COSTA:
Oh, it was critical, as Bob said, for Senator Graham, Senator Lee, and other conservatives, even former Vice President Dan Quayle, to say, "You can't do anything here, Vice President Pence, except count the votes." But there are so many historical counterfactuals. What could have happened if Pence went in a different direction and just walked away?
CHUCK TODD:
Bob, the roles of Lindsey Graham and Mark Meadows here, at times it looked like they were sort of enabling President Trump's wishes on this election and at times they seemed to want to steer him away from this. Is that the case? How would you characterize their roles?
BOB WOODWARD:
Well, there's a lot of ambivalence here, but we quote conversations between Senator Graham and Trump in which Lindsey Graham said to Trump, "You effed up your presidency," at one point just a couple of months ago. And Trump hung up on him and then called him back a day later and Lindsey Graham said to him, "I would have hung up, too." And the core conclusion that Graham has is “If you lost a close election, face it. Notch it back.” And now we have Trump out calling Senator Lee and Senator Graham -- somehow they folded. I mean -- Trump is attacking them because they found the truth. And the truth is this was not a stolen election.
CHUCK TODD:
And it really wasn't even that close.
BOB WOODWARD:
No, it wasn't even close. But we felt an obligation to look at that. And that's how we found these memos that were written. Giuliani wrote all these memos to Lindsey Graham, saying all kinds of fraudulent votes, kids voted, dead people voted. And then they looked at this and it's not there.
CHUCK TODD:
Right. Debunked, debunked, debunked. You've covered President Trump since the beginning of, sort of, that staircase, Robert. Does he -- do you think he really believes he won? Or do you think he really believes -- because I feel like the truth sort of showed up in one of the quotes in the book when he said, "If I don't keep fighting, I'll lose my base." He thinks his political base is because he fights the establishment, not because of any policy he enacts, right?
ROBERT COSTA:
I've learned, covering President Trump and covering politics, it doesn't really matter sometimes what people think, it's what they do, and to assume nothing. In 2015, a lot of people said Donald Trump won't run. He'll never win, once he announced in 2016. Well, he won and he lost in 2020. He wants power back. Our reporting in the book shows these rallies don't get a ton of coverage, but he's out there with this Churchillian type language, "We'll never surrender. We'll never give in," whipping up thousands of people across the country. And the most important thing, it's not just his personality as the story. He's influencing the Republican Party across the country to now run for office, to be secretaries of state, to be election officials. 2022 to 2024 --
CHUCK TODD:
He's bending the party to his will, isn't he?
ROBERT COSTA:
Certainly.
CHUCK TODD:
Bob, the final question I have for you, since we noted here, and the puns were necessary, All the President's Men and Final Days, in some ways you put both books into one in this one. Trumpian versus Nixonian. Define the two.
BOB WOODWARD:
Well, Trump has -- I mean, it's what is the presidency about for the average voter out there? And it is evaporating because Trump is staking everything on this stolen election claim. And even we were able to get information about the then CIA Director Gina Haspel, someone who has been very silent, an expert on instability, unstable regimes. And she concluded in November that -- what is this? A right wing coup? That President Trump is like a child, a six-year-old having a temper tantrum.
CHUCK TODD:
So, does this go beyond Nixonian? To be Trumpian is worse than to be Nixonian?
BOB WOODWARD:
Well, we were in a dangerous national security moment, which we documented. If things had gone crazy with China or Russia or Iran, we discovered these countries were on alert. And you know, that's the edge of war and miscommunication, a pretty frightening time about --
ROBERT COSTA:
And as Bob and I have talked about, when Nixon gets on the helicopter in '74, he goes away to California and stays there. Not the same dynamic this time with President Trump.
CHUCK TODD:
No. There's a reason, I think, you guys have an aptly named book called Peril. Let's hope we're not still at peril. Thank you, both. When we come back, progressive democrats versus the moderates. And the only thing at stake? Just the presidency of Joe Biden. The panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Panel is here: Amy Walter, editor-in-chief and publisher of The Cook Political Report, NBC News Capitol Hill correspondent Leigh Ann Caldwell, Eddie Glaude, Jr. of Princeton University, and Meghan McCain, columnist for TheDailyMail.com. It's good to have a McCain back on Meet the Press.
MEGHAN McCAIN:
Thank you very much --
CHUCK TODD:
Nice to have you here.
MEGHAN McCAIN:
-- for having me.
CHUCK TODD:
So let's start with what we've learned about what's going on in Congress. Leigh Ann, this is your turf. I'm sure you caught the number Cory Booker said, which was sometimes, "Look, whether it's $3 trillion or $2.5." And I thought, "the number's moving.” What's going to happen this week?
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
The number is moving. And the reason it's moving is because they know that they can't get $3.5 trillion. That has been made clear. But there’s problems with the number too. And that is that people like Senator Joe Manchin, who have said they won't support $3.5 trillion, also won't give a specific number. And so Speaker Pelosi is trying to negotiate legislation with the moderates, with the progressives, and with people like Senator Joe Manchin in the Senate who aren't specific on what they want. So it's a Rubik's cube. It's a Venn diagram. And it's every sort of, like, crazy mathematical thing that they're trying to fit together. And it's extremely complicated. And my sources say they don't know how it's going to play out yet.
CHUCK TODD:
The Pythagorean theorem in here at all? Amy, it's remarkable to me that Cory Booker's, like, "Yeah, I don’t" -- he didn't say, "I don't trust," but he then described a situation that he says, "I don't trust."
AMY WALTER:
I know we're not supposed to do this, but before we came on, we were chatting about this. And we were reminded of the number of times where the House has felt like they were hung out to dry. That they pass something, whether it's climate, whether it's back in the '90s, the BTU tax, only to find that the Senate --
CHUCK TODD:
This has happened to House Republicans too, right? This is, this is --
AMY WALTER:
Fair.
CHUCK TODD:
-- the Senate and the House do this to each other no matter who’s in charge.
AMY WALTER:
That's fair. That happened with the health care bill, right? They took that big vote and then watched the Senate go. To me, where we are though is so much driven by, you know, that phrase that Mike Tyson once had, that, "Everybody has a plan until you get punched in the mouth," right? And the plan back in the spring was by this point, we would be free from Covid. The economy would be roaring back. And, of course, the momentum that that would bring to this legislative process. Democrats would come together. This would be, you know, not as big of a lift as it is right now. Now, what we have is a president who's desperate for his party to give him momentum, right? He's not bringing it to the table.
CHUCK TODD:
Meghan, I want you to play a reporter here for us because you may have the best sense of Kyrsten Sinema. I know you have a pretty good personal relationship. What does she, we don’t -- that's the frustration, Democrats say. They don't know what Joe Manchin wants. They don't know what his bottom line is, and they don't know what her bottom line is. How would you describe it?
MEGHAN McCAIN:
Well, I mean, politically in Arizona, I think that's why people like her so much. Just anecdotally, conservatives in my life really like her because, you know, she's holding the line for conservatives in a lot of ways. The question I always have is, you know, for people like Joe Manchin, if it's not him, it's going to be a Republican. So this distaste and this, you know, outward hostility towards moderates in the Democratic Party surprises me. I also was shocked by seeing Senator Booker talking about sort of openly this distrust between progressives and moderates. How the Democratic Party ultimately threads the needle, I don't know. But I will say that President Biden ran on being a moderate, as you said. He ran and won with the help of independents, centrists, you know, Trump-wary Republicans. And he is not governing as one. The Build Back Better agenda is the most progressive, modern agenda of all time, up to $5 trillion, and it's not polling well. So I think I'm just confused as to why they're doubling down on something that is cratering in the polls right now.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Eddie, I'm just curious, what do you --
MEGHAN McCAIN:
I know you disagree.
CHUCK TODD:
No, no, no. But should President Biden be leaning harder? Are you surprised he’s not leaning harder to get this bipartisan -- I would think he would need a signing ceremony yesterday.
EDDIE GLAUDE, JR.:
Absolutely. President Biden understood that he was in a moment where he needed to be a transformative president. It feels, Chuck, like we're in a political Groundhog Day, right? We've just experienced a pandemic. We're still in it. Close to 700,000 Americans are dead. The pandemic has revealed, it was like a blue dye into the social and political body of the United States. And that alongside of the threat that Trumpism presented to our democracy, it revealed all sorts of troubles across every aspect of our society. And our response bears a striking resemblance to the very logic that informed how we’ve governed for the last 40 years. So I understand where -- This is a political show. We have to talk about the politics of it all.
CHUCK TODD:
We're stuck.
EDDIE GLAUDE JR.:
But damn, you know? I mean, it seems to me we're talking about a figure, a number, $3.5 trillion. America's in trouble. And what are politicians doing, but haggling over, it seems to me, the elements of an ideology that has revealed itself to be bankrupt. That's my view.
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
And back to Senator Sinema, I have reporting that says that, out of all of this big reconciliation bill, all these different proponents, the thing that is most important to her is climate change, and why that -- so things get scaled back, she wants climate change proposals to be included in it. But that gets back to the Venn diagram because that's exactly what Senator Joe Manchin in this bill does not like.
CHUCK TODD:
By the way, the other talking point is, “Hey, this is zero cost.” Okay. It's all going to be paid for? And what's that going to look like?
AMY WALTER:
To me, this is the other big challenge for Democrats, as you pointed out in your interview with Senator Booker. There's a lot of discussion about the price tag. There's not a lot of discussion about the policy and how Democrats allowed this entire debate to be driven by, "Is it 3.5, is it 2.5, is one-point-whatever," rather than, "What is the policy that we're trying to put forward? "What's the name of this bill?" We keep calling it reconciliation. We keep calling it the trillion dollar social package.
CHUCK TODD:
At least health care had a name, Affordable Care Act.
AMY WALTER:
They don't even -- exactly.
CHUCK TODD:
Even Obamacare. At least you do “care.” It was about health care.
AMY WALTER:
Right, but there’s no -- no, no American knows what's in this. And when Senator Booker said, "Well, you take the individual pieces, people like it." Okay. But that's not what you're talking about right now.
CHUCK TODD:
Ultimately though, until Covid’s resolved, I think --
AMY WALTER:
I agree.
CHUCK TODD:
-- the politics for the president is going to be difficult. The Covid confusion doesn't help things.
MEGHAN McCAIN:
At all. I still don't know if I'm supposed to get a booster or not. The other thing I would piggyback on what you're saying, Amy, is that Americans may not understand this bill in its entirety, especially if you're an average American working. But they do understand inflation. They understand what happened in Afghanistan. They understand that their gas prices are going up. They understand that Christmas toys are going to be more expensive for their kids. And that is something that will be a deal breaker for candidates coming up in the midterms. And I believe your Cook Report showed Virginia now officially a toss-up state.
CHUCK TODD:
Covid, Covid, Covid. In many ways, the reason why our Christmas presents are going to be difficult to pack? Supply chain.
EDDIE GLAUDE JR.:
Supply chain. And, you know, every 43 seconds, an American dies. One in 500, dead from Covid.
CHUCK TODD:
We're going to hit 700,000.
EDDIE GLAUDE JR.:
Come on. It seems to me that there's some stuff on the table for us to deal with.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Can't resolve this now, but I have to take a break. Up next, the fight over abortion is heading to the Supreme Court. How Americans feel about abortion rights and the Court right now, when we come back.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back, it's Data Download time. This week, the United States Supreme Court announced it would hear arguments on a Mississippi law that would ban abortions after the first 15 weeks of pregnancy, except in the case of medical emergencies. Now, the news was the latest bit of evidence that abortion and the Court are going to remain big political issues in the months ahead. At the same time, the Court is seeing a major shift in voter attitudes about it. In fact, as abortion and the Supreme Court get conflated, you're going to see the poll numbers change for the Court. In fact, already, you're starting to see, and I want to show you something here from July to September. As you can see, before abortion -- we knew abortion was going to be front and center in the Court, both Republicans and Democrats had decent approval ratings of this Supreme Court. The right, happy with some of the business decisions, the left, happy with some of the social decisions, on things like same-sex marriage and things like that. But as you can see, as abortion has heated up, all of a sudden, you're seeing a partisan divide develop when it comes to the Court. So let's go to the issue of abortion. Some new polling out this week from our friends over at Fox. Future of Roe v. Wade: Overturn it or let it stand? A whopping 65%, highest number they had found. And look at it by party. A majority of Republicans in this Fox poll said, "Let Roe v. Wade stand" and, of course, a large majority of Democrats. Now, that's the big picture of Roe v. Wade. You start to get in a little bit of the details. An abortion ban after 15 weeks, and you can see the partisan divide grow a bit more. Overall, there's a plurality in favor of a ban of abortion after 15 weeks. 34% oppose. A large chunk, right, undecided on this issue. And you see the party line differences here on this. So this really is, in some ways, a line of demarcation when it comes to public opinion on abortion. And, of course, all of that means what? To both parties, and especially Democrats, the choice of the next Supreme Court justice as being very important, Democrats now caring more about the next choice than Republicans. When we come back, even after Arizona's phony election audit found that President Trump lost the state again, Mr. Trump insists it proves he won. So what is he doing? Calling for more so-called audits. Stay with us.
CHUCK TODD:
We are back. So the Arizona audit, Meghan, showed that --
MEGHAN McCAIN:
He lost by more.
CHUCK TODD:
He lost by more.
MEGHAN McCAIN:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
President Trump has not taken it very well. Last night in Georgia, he seemed to go after any Republicans that stood in his way. Let me play a little sound.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Raffensperger, Raffensperger. I'm telling you, I think there's something wrong with him. And your rhino governor, Brian Kemp, who's been a complete disaster on election integrity. Governor Ducey was horrible. He was missing in action. We didn't get any help from Mitch McConnell.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
So Meghan, Mitch McConnell, Doug Ducey, Brian Kemp. This conspiracy reaches pretty deep into stopping President Trump in his own mind, doesn't it?
MEGHAN McCAIN:
I don't even know how to talk about this because it is conspiratorial, you know, insanity from the bowels of the internet. There is a segment of the Republican Party that believes it. I know people that think the election is stolen. It's the big lie that people are still believing. It's a huge challenge for the party going forward. But, as Mitch McConnell recently said, I believe he called President Trump a horse that is out to pasture and should stay there, a thoroughbred that should stay there. And if you look at polling against people like Governor DeSantis, President Trump does not have the stranglehold on the party that he once did. And I think it's college-educated women. Continue, sorry.
CHUCK TODD:
I kind of agree that you're right, except the party, Eddie, the party leaders publicly act as if Trump still has all of this power.
EDDIE GLAUDE JR.:
Absolutely.
CHUCK TODD:
Right? She's not wrong. There is polling indicating that people -- "Please go away." But they're afraid to say it publicly.
EDDIE GLAUDE JR.:
Yeah. I mean, in some ways, Governor DeSantis, his popularity has everything to do with he's a version of Trump in some ways, in particular sorts of ways. But I think you're absolutely right. The base of the party is locked in lockstep with Trump. And what I heard in Trump's remarks last night in Georgia was in effect, "If we don't win, somebody stole it. If the results aren't consistent with the way in which I think they should be, then someone stole it." We heard it from Elder. Seems like it's going to be a strategy across the Republican Party these days.
CHUCK TODD:
Leigh Ann, there's not a Republican, other than Adam Kinzinger and Liz Cheney right now, a House Republican that feels comfortable really going after him publicly, right?
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
Yeah, that's absolutely right. The base of the party is still -- even though Trump is not the same factor that he was with he was president, the base of the party is still beholden to him. And they are rabid about him. And Republicans, especially in the House, know that. They are afraid of primaries. They are afraid of being on the other end of Trump bullying, because they know that will hurt them even in their gerrymandered districts, where they're likely to -- they’re going to win a general election. It's the primaries that matter. And that's what they're worried about.
AMY WALTER:
And to me, this has been the danger all along for Republicans, is a sense that, "We just don't anger him. Just appease him a little bit. And it'll go away."
CHUCK TODD:
Appease?
AMY WALTER:
"It'll get better. Don't worry --"
CHUCK TODD:
Does appeasing work?
AMY WALTER:
"-- about it." It's not working.
CHUCK TODD:
No.
AMY WALTER:
I don't like that it's being called an audit because that puts an air of legitimacy to it. It is not legitimate. The legitimate forces, the people whose job it is to say, "These elections were held fairly" have ruled. That should be the end of it. And so I don't think the point is to say, "We want to take every election we lose and say we won," the point is to undermine the integrity of the entire --
CHUCK TODD:
All elections?
AMY WALTER:
-- process. And once that's gone, I don't want to be the alarmist, but it is very dangerous and scary --
CHUCK TODD:
Well, that brings me to this Robert Kagan column that everybody's been buzzing about. This is in The Washington Post, and I've been divided. Is it alarmist? Or is it prescient? Let me read a little excerpt. "The Republican Party today is a zombie party. Its leaders go through the motions of governing in pursuit of traditional Republican goals. The party's main, if not sole purpose today though, is as the willing enabler of Trump's efforts to game the electoral system to ensure his return to power."
MEGHAN McCAIN:
I mean --
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
MEGHAN McCAIN:
Nothing --
CHUCK TODD:
Is it prescient or --
MEGHAN McCAIN:
-- galvanizes Republicans right now than seeing what happened in Afghanistan, than seeing this giant spending package. I mean, the thing that can unite me with the bigger MAGA person in the world is the build back better progressive agenda. So I do think, while it's, you know, uncouth in polite society to say that you would be okay having anything to do with President Trump, there are people that will vote for anything except what's happening right now. And I agree with what you're always saying. I always consider President Trump like Godzilla under the water. And the sequel could easily come. But there really are people in the party that I think, at the very least, will put up a very good fight against him. And he is still very powerful in a lot of ways. But he is not the kingmaker he once was, as we've seen in primaries across the country.
EDDIE GLAUDE JR.:
The fascinating part about what you've just said, Meghan, is that it's the feature of the argument that Kagan is making, and that is that there's a loyalty to national party, a desire to own the libs, to define oneself over and against those folks that you do not want to govern. And so you're willing to make a certain kind of choice, a kind of Faustian bargain that allowed -- that unleashed this person into our body politic. It’s fascinating. I think it's a bit alarmist. I disagree with the way in which he tries to disentangle the history of the Republican Party from Trumpism. But he's onto something, Chuck. And that is, I'm going to echo Amy, this is calling into question the very foundation of our democracy. If the body public do not -- if the people do not trust the process, we can't --
AMY WALTER:
We have nothing.
EDDIE GLAUDE JR.:
-- exist --
CHUCK TODD:
What are close elections going to look like on November of '22?
EDDIE GLAUDE JR.:
Exactly.
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
Well, that's the thing. It's not about the past election anymore. They're still talking about the past election, but they're trying to delegitimize future elections.
CHUCK TODD:
I think that's the concern we all have. And it's sort of, like, boy. I fear -- I used to love a close election. Now I fear the impact of what unpacking that would be. Thank you all. But before we go, I want to let you know that we are kicking off our third season of Meet the Press Reports. It's where we deep dive into one subject. You can see new episodes on NBC News NOW on Thursdays at 9:00 p.m. Eastern and any time on Peacock. So, and by the way, today to get you ready for the new season, you can see all eight episodes of season two from 2:00 to 6:00 p.m. Eastern on NBC News NOW today. That's all we have for today. So thank you for watching. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.